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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and as you may

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recall a couple of episodes back I had

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an interview with Ohio State comparative

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religions professor dr. Hugh Urban and

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what I found particularly interesting in

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that interview is the rather strange way

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in my opinion that many academics deal

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with cults like Scientology or as they

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sometimes like to refer to them new

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religions like Scientology and as I

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explained in that episode and as we'll

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talk about today I found that

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particularly strange in the case of

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Scientology because as we explored in

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that interview we have direct provable

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links between Scientology and occult

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practices number one but also with CIA

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dabbling with extended consciousness

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with programs like MK ULTRA and Kate

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often and even Stargate which we've

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talked about a lot on this show so after

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the interview one of the things I wanted

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to do was unpack both parts of that with

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someone who's actually experienced the

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reality of Scientology and that led me

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to today's guest Chris Shelton someone

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who at a very young age was

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indoctrinated into Scientology through

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his parents you know sometimes I think

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we forget how long Scientology's been

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around you know it's kind of

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multi-generational so imagine as a very

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young kid you know instead of going to

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Sunday's Cleaver God to Scientology it's

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not like somebody you know corralled you

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in off the streets of LA and took you

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into some hokey experiment like we

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always see this is your parents going

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there and saying hey maybe this is the

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way to go so Chris is going on to

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creative

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successful YouTube channel and a podcast

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called sensibly speaking where he

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regularly interviews experts on cults

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mind-control and other related topics

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that are important to people who found

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themselves in this rather unfortunate

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situation so Chris welcome thank you

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very much for joining me welcome to

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skeptic oh thank you thanks for having

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me on so as I was pulling together that

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intro I had in the back of my mind that

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you know there might be some places

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where you don't exactly agree with me

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and that's totally fine you do kind of

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come from this critical thinker

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the code word for atheist skeptic kind

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of thing I just say that because I've

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dealt with so many blockheaded

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closed-minded atheists who kind of wave

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this flag of critical thinking oh gee

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like everyone else is uncritical if

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you're critical I mean does it everyone

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claim to be a critical thinker I think

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they do I think there's people in

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Scientology you know they'll give you a

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real scientific explanation for what

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they did but I don't want to get too

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kind of far afield here because I do

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want to serve that first purpose of you

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were nice enough to look at the Hugh

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Urban interview and you're sure like I

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said I could only get through about half

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of it Alex because it got pretty hard

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and I understand that but I want to get

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to the big-picture stuff of your bio and

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just back to you know what do you think

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when you hear an academic like that

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talking about these new religions like

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Scientology yeah exactly they they

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specifically refer to them there was

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this coined term new religious movement

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or nrm's and this is something that has

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been circulating in academic circles or

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the academic world for at least a decade

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now and this I can't remember the name

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of the person whose brainchild that was

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but

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the the problem with describing high

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control authoritarian groups what people

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call cults or destructive cults

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specifically and I've gone into great

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detail about that in my channel is that

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it ignores the abusive aspect of these

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groups and the academics tend to shy

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away from in all the literature that I

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can find and I've read pretty

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extensively of it in fact I even did an

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entire video series breaking down a book

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called Scientology which was written

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entirely by academics who all come at it

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from the viewpoint of Scientology being

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a new religious movement that deserves

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religious freedom and recognition and

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analysis from at a professional level

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but who then proceeded to merely

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regurgitate Scientology's promotional

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materials in their academic studies and

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papers and this is what I take them to

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task for because if you're gonna

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objectively look at a new religious

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movement call it a new religious

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movement then you better be able to back

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that up with some evidence because we're

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talking studies now we're talking actual

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papers that are written by academics for

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academics in the world of academia these

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are not popular works these are not

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printed for the public at large so these

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are people who live in the world of

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having to publish or perish well it

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appears hold on because you kind of took

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touch on a couple of different things

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that when you gotta pull apart you know

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one is that the the abuse you know and

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you're gonna we need to talk about that

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can I back you up just a minute and have

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you talked about your bio just a brief

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so that people understand you know like

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I said I mean you're kind of raised into

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this Scientology thing of course I'm

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sorry I just launched right into that

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but yes I am a former Scientologists

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Atossa nears professionally like I

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worked for the organization for 25 of

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those years

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I was raised in Scientology before that

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that was I count my Scientology time

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from the point that I was fifteen but I

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was actually raised with it my parents

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got involved when I was four years old

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so I don't cattle didn't memory outside

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of Scientology you see I mean you know I

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mean I remember a couple things from

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before I was 40 years old but for the

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most part Scientology has always been

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there the concepts have always been

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there the terminology of which there is

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a great deal has always been there

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I was raised with these ideas so and it

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was really not a whole lot different my

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experience from I think being raised in

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any kind of what I would say is a

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strongly religious family right it's not

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Scientology is not a casual thing my

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parents worked for the organization they

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were deeply involved with it up until

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the late 80s they got out in the 90s I

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was then all-in so then I was the

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Scientologist in the family and they

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were kinda they had kind of both gotten

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out but they drifted away and I stayed

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it and by this point I was in my 20s I

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worked for the organization in Santa

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Barbara and then I moved down the Los

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Angeles and I joined what's called the

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Sea Org and a sea organization when I

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was 25 years old in 1995 and I moved

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down to Los Angeles and I worked for the

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sea organization for 17 years finally

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got out in 2000 the end of 2012 and it

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was a year later after getting full

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exposure to the Internet uncensored

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which in the world of Scientology and

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Sea Org the Internet is censored in the

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same way it's censored in China it's

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it's filtered you simply cannot access

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certain information and so I there was a

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ton of information about Scientology

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that I never had access to so when I

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left in 2012 when I left the sea

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organization I was still a believer in

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Scientology within a year of being

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exposed to all of the truth about

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Scientology and l ron Hubbard I was out

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and I was so out but I started speaking

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out publicly against it because I was so

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outraged about what I had learned that

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the church labeled me an enemy

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I am now declared a suppressive person

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by the Church of Scientology which means

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I'm not to be talked to or connected to

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or or in any way correspondent with by

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Scientologists they completely shut me

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out of their life I lost friends I've

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lost people I've known for over 20 years

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overnight because the church said I'm an

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enemy you can't talk to him anymore and

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they all comply let me just interject

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there because yeah you know one of the

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things that you said I that's a cult you

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don't know so at the beginning right so

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it's just like kind of crazy like we're

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talking about dr. urban who seems like a

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super nice guy and is an interesting guy

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and has a lot of interesting pursuits in

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terms of comparative religions that are

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important in our scholarly but for him

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to kind of miss it's a [\h__\h] cult and

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unless we can talk about it as a cult

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then we can't get to the basics to get

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to some of the kind of fundamental

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understandings of what that means how it

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fits in but the other thing I think that

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we that we miss out on is the

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opportunity to just slow down and have a

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little bit of respect for the victims

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and I want to talk about that a little

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bit I don't know if that's even a word

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that maybe you don't like or don't

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associate with which I would totally

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respect but the thing that I get it kind

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of annoys me is that I feel like man you

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don't have to frickin apologize those

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which is sometimes what I hear like

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people go oh and you know I stayed in

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it's like Frank you work you were four

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years old that's all you knew your

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parents indict you know it's like and

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then people because I know people will

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say well you're kind of partially

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responsible Chris because you stayed in

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I'm sure you feel enough responsible as

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it is what about if we don't understand

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it as a cult if we can't identify it as

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a cult then I don't think we can really

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respect fully what that was for you what

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your experience was and I'm kind of on a

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soapbox there but to tell me what your

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thoughts are

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well I agree with you um victim is not a

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word that I eschew I I'm definitely was

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victimized by Scientology anybody who

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gets involved in Scientology eventually

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will be that's the nature of what it

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does that's why we call it a destructive

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cult there's very specific

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characteristics connected with that I

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use that term theory advisedly but I

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understand that it's a loaded word there

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was a lot of you know contention about

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the use of that word I'm not I don't shy

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away from it I think you're right I

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think we have to talk about these groups

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in proper terminology and destructive

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cult is a perfectly acceptable term to

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use when you have a very exact

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definition for it which we do this is

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not work I invented I I'm built my work

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on the work of people who came before me

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like Yaya la loge Steve Hasson Robert J

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lift and of course going all the way

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back to the the 50s and 60s there you

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know Margaret singer there are a lot of

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people in this line right I stand on the

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shoulder of giants in many ways with

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things that I've talked about including

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even former Scientologists who've come

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00:12:16,390 --> 00:12:14,390
out and spent years studying this and

274
00:12:19,449 --> 00:12:16,400
figuring out what happened to them in

275
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like John ATAC who's written books of

276
00:12:25,890 --> 00:12:22,010
you know quality about this work and who

277
00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:25,900
is in who are routinely ignored by the

278
00:12:30,670 --> 00:12:28,040
academics that we're talking about that

279
00:12:32,410 --> 00:12:30,680
they will not give any credibility or

280
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:32,420
credence to our stories because they

281
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:35,360
just assume that all of us have an axe

282
00:12:39,220 --> 00:12:37,370
to grind we are in we cannot be

283
00:12:42,250 --> 00:12:39,230
impartial or objective and therefore

284
00:12:44,590 --> 00:12:42,260
nothing we say matters and if that's not

285
00:12:47,710 --> 00:12:44,600
the very definition of prejudicial

286
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:47,720
academia I don't know what is now Chris

287
00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:51,650
let me give you dr. Urban's spin on that

288
00:12:55,060 --> 00:12:53,570
and then I want you to because I really

289
00:12:57,070 --> 00:12:55,070
want you to respond this is like one of

290
00:13:01,180 --> 00:12:57,080
the primary things I think we can

291
00:13:02,980 --> 00:13:01,190
accomplish in doing this is that so you

292
00:13:05,079 --> 00:13:02,990
talk to those folks and I threw up a

293
00:13:07,810 --> 00:13:05,089
slide on the screen yeah I think of this

294
00:13:09,370 --> 00:13:07,820
another guy I love jeff kraebel he's

295
00:13:11,949 --> 00:13:09,380
great he's been this year multiple times

296
00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:11,959
he's going out got a lot of interesting

297
00:13:18,850 --> 00:13:15,260
things to say about a lot of these

298
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:18,860
topics but there is a certain kind of my

299
00:13:23,950 --> 00:13:21,200
optic mindset

300
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:23,960
when we get into these cults and they

301
00:13:29,620 --> 00:13:25,730
don't seem to be able to break out of it

302
00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:29,630
and so what dr. urban says in I don't

303
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:30,800
know if you got to this part of the

304
00:13:36,250 --> 00:13:33,200
interview but he said look you know

305
00:13:38,110 --> 00:13:36,260
there's was too much in the public

306
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:38,120
discourse there was too much just

307
00:13:44,590 --> 00:13:41,810
dialogue from people who were survivors

308
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:44,600
kind of victims kind of thing and we had

309
00:13:51,730 --> 00:13:46,730
to balance that out you know so we had

310
00:13:54,190 --> 00:13:51,740
to seek balance and to me I get that on

311
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:54,200
one hand but I always think of the kind

312
00:13:58,570 --> 00:13:56,210
of false equivalency thing which I've

313
00:14:01,090 --> 00:13:58,580
dealt with on so many topics on this

314
00:14:03,850 --> 00:14:01,100
show you know where all the evidence

315
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:03,860
really is on one side so let's go out

316
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:06,770
and find somebody on the other side who

317
00:14:11,380 --> 00:14:09,290
can prop it up and make it look like

318
00:14:16,060 --> 00:14:11,390
there's some kind of genuine discussion

319
00:14:19,870 --> 00:14:16,070
here that must feel frustrating to you

320
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:19,880
when academia does that in this case

321
00:14:25,330 --> 00:14:22,130
because there really isn't any balance

322
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:25,340
here is there no there isn't and that is

323
00:14:30,070 --> 00:14:26,930
why it's frustrating for me that's a

324
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:30,080
that's what compelled me to make a whole

325
00:14:35,380 --> 00:14:33,530
series of videos taking on every single

326
00:14:37,870 --> 00:14:35,390
one of these essays and one at a time

327
00:14:40,830 --> 00:14:37,880
showing where they get it wrong talking

328
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:40,840
exactly about what they missed and

329
00:14:45,130 --> 00:14:43,730
taking them to task for it you know if

330
00:14:47,290 --> 00:14:45,140
you're going to publish an academic

331
00:14:50,290 --> 00:14:47,300
paper about Scientology you better have

332
00:14:52,540 --> 00:14:50,300
something to say and if what you have to

333
00:14:54,370 --> 00:14:52,550
say is simply regurgitated Scientology

334
00:14:56,290 --> 00:14:54,380
promotional materials and I am

335
00:15:00,490 --> 00:14:56,300
intimately familiar with Scientology's

336
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:00,500
promotional materials I wrote them so I

337
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:03,530
I understand how Scientology presents

338
00:15:09,190 --> 00:15:06,110
itself to the world and I understand the

339
00:15:11,710 --> 00:15:09,200
curtain or veil behind which Scientology

340
00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:11,720
operates and what they do when people

341
00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:15,230
are around you know what when when it's

342
00:15:18,820 --> 00:15:17,180
just Scientologists when it's Jesse or

343
00:15:21,460 --> 00:15:18,830
cuz how did they talk what do they say

344
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:21,470
what did they think I understand all of

345
00:15:25,060 --> 00:15:24,170
that at a very intimate level I was all

346
00:15:27,730 --> 00:15:25,070
in

347
00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:27,740
and I was at its highest levels for over

348
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,470
a decade so if there's somebody that

349
00:15:34,079 --> 00:15:32,240
they want to talk to who's actually

350
00:15:37,199 --> 00:15:34,089
gonna be able to give them and

351
00:15:41,009 --> 00:15:37,209
Meishan about what Scientology really is

352
00:15:44,129 --> 00:15:41,019
about it's people like me it's not just

353
00:15:45,299 --> 00:15:44,139
me there's so many former members who

354
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:45,309
have come out and shared their

355
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:48,730
experiences and have talked about how

356
00:15:53,549 --> 00:15:51,040
what Scientology presents to the world

357
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:53,559
is very different from what actually

358
00:16:01,439 --> 00:15:58,480
goes on in Scientology academics stop at

359
00:16:04,769 --> 00:16:01,449
the propaganda level they don't go any

360
00:16:07,199 --> 00:16:04,779
further and that's where they lose and

361
00:16:09,119 --> 00:16:07,209
that's why their objectivity is called

362
00:16:10,829 --> 00:16:09,129
into question that's why their motives

363
00:16:13,650 --> 00:16:10,839
are called into question because they

364
00:16:17,069 --> 00:16:13,660
don't academically rigorously pursue

365
00:16:20,699 --> 00:16:17,079
this topic if they did their work would

366
00:16:23,850 --> 00:16:20,709
look a lot different that's that's kind

367
00:16:25,949 --> 00:16:23,860
of my point there I want to pull that

368
00:16:29,129 --> 00:16:25,959
back though right on that point and say

369
00:16:32,819 --> 00:16:29,139
that I wonder if the problem isn't

370
00:16:33,299 --> 00:16:32,829
deeper in a way so I think what you're

371
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:33,309
doing

372
00:16:40,110 --> 00:16:37,930
religion it's it's not that it's they

373
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:40,120
don't seem to be able to deal with this

374
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:42,730
cult issue and I guess I'd even poke you

375
00:16:47,790 --> 00:16:44,800
a little bit because like when you said

376
00:16:49,889 --> 00:16:47,800
you know I vary it advisedly use the

377
00:16:53,249 --> 00:16:49,899
term cult to hell with that

378
00:16:56,660 --> 00:16:53,259
I think we're way too careful about

379
00:16:59,970 --> 00:16:56,670
really trying to understand the cultish

380
00:17:01,350 --> 00:16:59,980
influences that are there's another way

381
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:01,360
to look at like some of the interviews

382
00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:03,370
you've done with some of the cult

383
00:17:06,779 --> 00:17:04,990
experts and I would actually pick some

384
00:17:08,010 --> 00:17:06,789
different cult experts even though I

385
00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:08,020
we've interviewed some of the same

386
00:17:15,059 --> 00:17:11,289
people because I think what cults are

387
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:15,069
tapping into are some very basic human

388
00:17:21,210 --> 00:17:19,839
needs and human psychological weaknesses

389
00:17:23,370 --> 00:17:21,220
strengths you know this need for

390
00:17:27,870 --> 00:17:23,380
community this need for authority this

391
00:17:30,510 --> 00:17:27,880
need for a core set of beliefs that

392
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:30,520
provide a certainty to structuring life

393
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:33,730
I think those things pop up all over the

394
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:36,370
place and I think to pretend that we

395
00:17:43,710 --> 00:17:40,210
have some clear dividing line that we

396
00:17:45,940 --> 00:17:43,720
can very advisedly call this a cult and

397
00:17:48,670 --> 00:17:45,950
that not a cult I

398
00:17:51,850 --> 00:17:48,680
think obscures it and that's what I hear

399
00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:51,860
so many times is the subtext of Hugh

400
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:54,320
Urban Jeff [\h__\h] the rest of those

401
00:17:59,680 --> 00:17:57,200
guys is to say well I mean then we'd

402
00:18:02,980 --> 00:17:59,690
have to look at all religions as cults

403
00:18:06,730 --> 00:18:02,990
and I'm like yes that's what we should

404
00:18:10,270 --> 00:18:06,740
do we should examine whether or not each

405
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:10,280
and every religion is a cult or to what

406
00:18:15,490 --> 00:18:13,850
extent it's a cult you know a little

407
00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:15,500
aside you know there's a lot of those

408
00:18:22,330 --> 00:18:17,630
stuff that I've done especially early on

409
00:18:24,610 --> 00:18:22,340
was in near-death experience many people

410
00:18:27,310 --> 00:18:24,620
know and are aware of and it the

411
00:18:30,270 --> 00:18:27,320
near-death experience stuff is very

412
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:30,280
powerful for people from a

413
00:18:34,540 --> 00:18:31,970
transformational spiritual

414
00:18:36,370 --> 00:18:34,550
transformational kind of standpoint you

415
00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:36,380
can maybe kind of see where this is

416
00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:36,950
going

417
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:39,920
so it starts playing some of those cult

418
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:42,770
buttons and some of these groups that

419
00:18:48,190 --> 00:18:44,510
get together and talk about near-death

420
00:18:50,890 --> 00:18:48,200
experiences can start looking like or

421
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:50,900
being infiltrated by cults and I

422
00:18:54,850 --> 00:18:52,910
actually had a group that did that and

423
00:18:56,980 --> 00:18:54,860
this is a group that had invited me to

424
00:18:59,440 --> 00:18:56,990
speak of a keynote speak which a speech

425
00:19:02,680 --> 00:18:59,450
which I never did and I got an email

426
00:19:04,930 --> 00:19:02,690
from a listener to skeptic oh he said

427
00:19:07,210 --> 00:19:04,940
hey I was at a meeting recently and

428
00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:07,220
there's this woman up there and she's

429
00:19:11,470 --> 00:19:09,590
she's in a cult and she's kind of

430
00:19:13,630 --> 00:19:11,480
co-opting the whole near-death

431
00:19:16,870 --> 00:19:13,640
experience thing and I'm worried about

432
00:19:19,630 --> 00:19:16,880
it so I went and interviewed one of the

433
00:19:22,540 --> 00:19:19,640
leaders of the very legitimate

434
00:19:24,670 --> 00:19:22,550
near-death experience organization and I

435
00:19:27,970 --> 00:19:24,680
said what's up with this cult thing and

436
00:19:30,250 --> 00:19:27,980
that was his claim you know number one

437
00:19:31,710 --> 00:19:30,260
he defended as well it's a mildly

438
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:31,720
dangerous cult

439
00:19:39,820 --> 00:19:38,090
number two he was like and this is I

440
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:39,830
think links back I know this is a long

441
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:41,450
story but I think it links back to the

442
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:45,710
human think he does look if we cut if we

443
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:48,110
cut these people off from full

444
00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:51,170
participation in our group then what do

445
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:53,350
we do about people who have a Christian

446
00:19:56,690 --> 00:19:55,250
experience as part of their near-death

447
00:19:58,790 --> 00:19:56,700
experience or what do they do

448
00:20:01,690 --> 00:19:58,800
we do with other religious people so I

449
00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:01,700
think that a lot of times we feel

450
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:05,100
hamstrung by this narrow to use your

451
00:20:10,910 --> 00:20:08,670
word again very advisedly controlled

452
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:10,920
definition of cults rather than more

453
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:14,610
broadly looking at how these are very

454
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:18,330
common psychological factors that we're

455
00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:20,730
all susceptible to and in a way I feel

456
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:22,830
this is like right in your swing zone

457
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:25,170
isn't it Chris well I get very much so

458
00:20:29,210 --> 00:20:26,640
this is all I've been looking at for the

459
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:29,220
last seven years the the problem there

460
00:20:32,690 --> 00:20:30,930
of course is that these religious

461
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:32,700
studies academics never go over to the

462
00:20:34,910 --> 00:20:34,110
psychology department have a talk with

463
00:20:36,890 --> 00:20:34,920
them about it

464
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:36,900
that's not where they're that's not how

465
00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:39,570
they're coming at this and I have been

466
00:20:45,050 --> 00:20:41,220
breaking down and deconstructing my

467
00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:45,060
experience of the 27 plus years over the

468
00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:46,830
last six or seven years by talking to

469
00:20:49,820 --> 00:20:48,060
all these people and breaking it down

470
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:49,830
and looking at it from lots of different

471
00:20:55,340 --> 00:20:51,930
angles you can look at all of these

472
00:20:56,810 --> 00:20:55,350
things from lots of levels there's lots

473
00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:56,820
of levels you can look at these from

474
00:21:01,790 --> 00:20:58,650
from a psychological level there's a

475
00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:01,800
whole world to explore of mechanisms and

476
00:21:07,250 --> 00:21:04,440
beliefs and systems and things that go

477
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:07,260
on just here then there is a

478
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:09,090
neurological level where you really

479
00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:11,010
drill down and do just what's going on

480
00:21:16,190 --> 00:21:14,820
in here there's a sociological level so

481
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:16,200
yeah I'll just kind of filled it with

482
00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:17,970
this stuff right as well they should

483
00:21:22,940 --> 00:21:20,550
it's fascinating study comparative

484
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:22,950
religions is a fascinating from a

485
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:25,440
sociological point of view why did this

486
00:21:29,330 --> 00:21:27,930
group do this when this group didn't you

487
00:21:31,340 --> 00:21:29,340
know this kind of thing right looking

488
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:31,350
looking at that I don't think it's

489
00:21:39,890 --> 00:21:37,170
really possible and having the

490
00:21:41,390 --> 00:21:39,900
psychology talk to I think these two

491
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:41,400
things are very very important to

492
00:21:45,260 --> 00:21:43,710
understanding the total experience of

493
00:21:46,780 --> 00:21:45,270
what goes on in these cults I think you

494
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:46,790
have to look at them from both levels

495
00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:50,640
what religious scholars are doing is a

496
00:21:55,310 --> 00:21:54,030
much shallower look and I'm I know that

497
00:21:57,380 --> 00:21:55,320
they're gonna have take exception to

498
00:21:59,810 --> 00:21:57,390
this but this is how I see it right

499
00:22:01,820 --> 00:21:59,820
they're looking at group characteristics

500
00:22:04,730 --> 00:22:01,830
they're looking at group beliefs that

501
00:22:08,899 --> 00:22:04,740
Dogma they're looking at ritual and

502
00:22:11,989 --> 00:22:08,909
practices they're fitting this thing

503
00:22:13,969 --> 00:22:11,999
Scientology or any other group and there

504
00:22:16,669 --> 00:22:13,979
they're checking boxes does it have

505
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:16,679
rituals does it have religious dogma

506
00:22:21,049 --> 00:22:18,450
doesn't have beliefs how do those

507
00:22:23,570 --> 00:22:21,059
beliefs manifest these are the things

508
00:22:26,690 --> 00:22:23,580
they're looking at they don't that

509
00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:26,700
what's not on that list of checkboxes

510
00:22:30,349 --> 00:22:28,590
that they should be adding to and I

511
00:22:34,339 --> 00:22:30,359
think this is where they fall down is

512
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:34,349
the abusive factor you really shouldn't

513
00:22:39,229 --> 00:22:36,330
be ignoring that in looking at these

514
00:22:42,169 --> 00:22:39,239
groups but one for one for one I have

515
00:22:46,159 --> 00:22:42,179
not found any religious scholar who will

516
00:22:48,409 --> 00:22:46,169
actually use the word abuse and yet it

517
00:22:51,229 --> 00:22:48,419
is clearly what goes on in these high

518
00:22:53,479 --> 00:22:51,239
control groups way more than just you

519
00:22:54,739 --> 00:22:53,489
know Scientology sure but lots and lots

520
00:22:57,649 --> 00:22:54,749
of groups there are thousands of these

521
00:23:00,830 --> 00:22:57,659
groups out there they're not even all

522
00:23:02,659 --> 00:23:00,840
religious and I think that's one of the

523
00:23:05,269 --> 00:23:02,669
reasons also that these religious

524
00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:05,279
academic scholars kind of maybe don't

525
00:23:09,769 --> 00:23:06,840
want to go there because then they have

526
00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:09,779
to dive into it's not about the

527
00:23:13,399 --> 00:23:11,609
religious aspect of this group it's

528
00:23:15,109 --> 00:23:13,409
about there's other characteristics

529
00:23:17,149 --> 00:23:15,119
other ways of looking at these groups

530
00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:17,159
and framing them that that the religion

531
00:23:22,460 --> 00:23:20,340
angle has nothing to do with it but they

532
00:23:24,469 --> 00:23:22,470
have decided in their collective wisdom

533
00:23:26,029 --> 00:23:24,479
this group of scholars and I don't know

534
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:26,039
how big they are I don't know how much

535
00:23:30,469 --> 00:23:28,529
of academia this is I only know that

536
00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:30,479
when you go to academia to talk about

537
00:23:35,599 --> 00:23:32,849
Scientology these are the this is what's

538
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:35,609
presented to you and Hugh Urban is one

539
00:23:40,249 --> 00:23:37,440
of the few people who will even be a

540
00:23:41,950 --> 00:23:40,259
little critical about Scientology right

541
00:23:44,839 --> 00:23:41,960
most of these guys give it a pass over

542
00:23:47,659 --> 00:23:44,849
and over and over again and when you

543
00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:47,669
talk about underlying problems to this I

544
00:23:51,769 --> 00:23:49,590
think the the biggest underlying problem

545
00:23:53,479 --> 00:23:51,779
is that many of these folks have come

546
00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:53,489
into this from an from a point of view

547
00:24:00,289 --> 00:23:56,809
of feeling that they are on a mission to

548
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:00,299
defend religious freedom and that

549
00:24:07,339 --> 00:24:03,840
somehow by presenting a you know sort of

550
00:24:09,139 --> 00:24:07,349
defense for these groups and calling

551
00:24:10,999 --> 00:24:09,149
them new religious movements when one

552
00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:11,009
there's nothing new about them there's

553
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:12,960
very little religious about them and

554
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:15,090
they are not really movements so all

555
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:17,129
three of those words are basically lots

556
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:21,450
there is a Mis assignation to call them

557
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:22,250
new really

558
00:24:26,110 --> 00:24:25,430
movements but that's where they decided

559
00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:26,120
to go

560
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:29,780
and so in apology in in what I now would

561
00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:32,000
I refer to as apologetics is that's what

562
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:36,140
it amount if academics don't dig into

563
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:38,570
the abusive side of things because they

564
00:24:43,450 --> 00:24:41,210
have an agenda of some time whatever

565
00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:43,460
that agenda is for each individual

566
00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:45,980
person I can't say I don't know them

567
00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:49,460
well enough but I can sleep that event

568
00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:52,760
it seems we let's all get together and

569
00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:54,560
figure out how to give these groups of

570
00:25:00,790 --> 00:24:57,110
pass so that they don't suffer from

571
00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:00,800
persecution due to people's prejudices

572
00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:05,150
against new religious movements and Wow

573
00:25:13,330 --> 00:25:10,430
laudable it is a miss it's just a missed

574
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:13,340
you know they they they decided to take

575
00:25:17,470 --> 00:25:16,130
this position and it's and that's the

576
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:17,480
hell they're gonna die on and

577
00:25:21,730 --> 00:25:20,210
unfortunately I think in the long run

578
00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:21,740
that is the hill they're gonna die in

579
00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:23,990
because their work will be wholly

580
00:25:28,630 --> 00:25:26,240
invalidated because it's just

581
00:25:30,250 --> 00:25:28,640
regurgitating the promotional materials

582
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:30,260
of these groups and it's not just

583
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:31,760
Scientology that they have done this

584
00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:33,650
with they've done this with TM they have

585
00:25:37,660 --> 00:25:35,600
done this with the Brethren twelve

586
00:25:39,910 --> 00:25:37,670
tribes I mean others they would have

587
00:25:42,250 --> 00:25:39,920
done it with nexium if nexium had been a

588
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:42,260
religious group you know I mean they're

589
00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:45,200
just they just ignore all the bad stuff

590
00:25:50,740 --> 00:25:48,320
I spent three years on the RPF the

591
00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:50,750
rehabilitation project force probably

592
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:53,270
the single most abusive aspect of

593
00:25:59,710 --> 00:25:56,570
Scientology explain to people it's a

594
00:26:02,050 --> 00:25:59,720
yeah it's a physical endurance program

595
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:02,060
you'd go there if you screw up in the

596
00:26:07,660 --> 00:26:04,250
Sea Org it's only for the Sea Org it's a

597
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:07,670
disciplinary prison like system and the

598
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:11,120
the purpose of it is re-education and I

599
00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:14,510
used in reeducation in the same way that

600
00:26:20,830 --> 00:26:18,140
Mao was reeducate in people in

601
00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:20,840
concentration camps in China following

602
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:24,020
the Chinese uprising and revolution that

603
00:26:28,210 --> 00:26:25,810
kind of reaction right in other words

604
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:28,220
indoctrination and when you stray from

605
00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:30,080
the path in the Sea Org and you start

606
00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:32,060
creating trouble or you get disaffected

607
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:35,220
or you've really screwed up on something

608
00:26:39,260 --> 00:26:37,530
according to Scientology's assessment of

609
00:26:41,150 --> 00:26:39,270
how you screw up on something which is a

610
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:41,160
little different from how normal people

611
00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:43,710
would think you end up in this program

612
00:26:47,870 --> 00:26:46,350
it is a full-time sequestered activity

613
00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:47,880
you're separated from the rest of the

614
00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:49,860
see work members if you're married sorry

615
00:26:53,390 --> 00:26:51,630
you know you don't get to see your wife

616
00:26:54,770 --> 00:26:53,400
or your husband or whatever for the

617
00:26:56,690 --> 00:26:54,780
entire period of time that you're on

618
00:26:58,340 --> 00:26:56,700
this program you cannot be spoke you

619
00:27:00,860 --> 00:26:58,350
cannot speak to anybody outside the

620
00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:00,870
program unless you're spoken to first

621
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:03,750
right there that the RPF tends to be

622
00:27:07,340 --> 00:27:05,760
kind of relegated to the basement and

623
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:07,350
nobody really wants to see them or talk

624
00:27:11,150 --> 00:27:09,330
to them they're bad you know they're

625
00:27:12,980 --> 00:27:11,160
there they're bad guys they screwed up

626
00:27:15,740 --> 00:27:12,990
right but they're they're taking this

627
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:15,750
one chance to redeem themselves and in

628
00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:18,090
the course of the RPF not only is there

629
00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:20,160
all this psychological reaction and

630
00:27:24,830 --> 00:27:22,950
group pressure to get you to conform and

631
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:24,840
comply with Scientology's directives

632
00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:28,890
that there is intense intense physical

633
00:27:32,780 --> 00:27:30,420
demands made on you because you're

634
00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:32,790
working most of the day you spend five

635
00:27:36,170 --> 00:27:34,440
hours a day doing this rehabilitation

636
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:36,180
stuff and the rest of the day you are

637
00:27:42,290 --> 00:27:39,120
running everywhere you go if you're

638
00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:42,300
caught slacking walking not working as

639
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:44,580
hard as you possibly can you're made to

640
00:27:49,370 --> 00:27:46,770
drop and do 20 push-ups or run around

641
00:27:51,530 --> 00:27:49,380
the block and do a lap this is right out

642
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:51,540
of cults right out of the cold

643
00:27:57,500 --> 00:27:54,000
makers handbook you know that's right oh

644
00:27:59,420 --> 00:27:57,510
yeah most sleep-deprived on proper

645
00:28:01,670 --> 00:27:59,430
nutrition and then we run the heck out

646
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:01,680
of exactly you're right I mean why this

647
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:04,410
is if you and I know this and it's

648
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:07,530
widely known why are we skate it

649
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:09,510
skirting this issue when we get to

650
00:28:14,330 --> 00:28:11,970
academia well exactly they want to

651
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:14,340
compare it to a monastic existence for

652
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:17,610
you know they make false comparatives

653
00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:20,010
this is there's one of the fallacies

654
00:28:26,210 --> 00:28:22,980
that these academics commit is they they

655
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:26,220
they try to find something that this

656
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:28,770
compares to that is legitimate rather

657
00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:30,720
than just looking at the RPF because

658
00:28:36,590 --> 00:28:32,430
whole papers have been written about the

659
00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:36,600
RPF by academics and they miss I want to

660
00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:38,340
pick up on that word I want to pick up

661
00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:40,620
on that word legitimate because I think

662
00:28:45,290 --> 00:28:43,740
I I'm really open to what you said and I

663
00:28:49,139 --> 00:28:45,300
hadn't thought about it quite that way

664
00:28:53,070 --> 00:28:49,149
in terms of kind of a lefty politics

665
00:28:55,529 --> 00:28:53,080
inclusiveness you know kind of died on

666
00:28:57,810 --> 00:28:55,539
that hill you know that and I get that

667
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:57,820
without judging whether or not that's

668
00:29:02,729 --> 00:28:59,679
there there's certainly a place for that

669
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:02,739
in terms of excluding people it's not we

670
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,159
have a pretty sorry history of excluding

671
00:29:10,979 --> 00:29:08,159
groups so we all understand the

672
00:29:12,959 --> 00:29:10,989
inclusiveness being in a lot of ways a

673
00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:12,969
good thing but here you're talking about

674
00:29:16,349 --> 00:29:15,129
kind of the the evil side of it you know

675
00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:16,359
which is there but the other thing I

676
00:29:21,089 --> 00:29:18,129
think that the hill they're going on is

677
00:29:22,829 --> 00:29:21,099
these atheism humanists and I know

678
00:29:25,979 --> 00:29:22,839
that's kind of in your camp but it's

679
00:29:29,789 --> 00:29:25,989
like this what always blows me away is

680
00:29:31,950 --> 00:29:29,799
this way that they process the

681
00:29:34,169 --> 00:29:31,960
consciousness aspect of it because

682
00:29:36,539 --> 00:29:34,179
that's been a big part of of my thing

683
00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:36,549
and in the interview that I did you know

684
00:29:44,969 --> 00:29:42,369
I shared with the audience this little

685
00:29:47,579 --> 00:29:44,979
quote which I think really revealing

686
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:47,589
about l ron hubbard and it's about

687
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:50,769
Hubbard and Jack Parsons who became very

688
00:29:57,419 --> 00:29:53,710
very close close friends and are engaged

689
00:29:59,969 --> 00:29:57,429
in a series of occult rituals through

690
00:30:02,310 --> 00:29:59,979
the direction of Aleister Crowley who's

691
00:30:04,469 --> 00:30:02,320
in England but has kind of chosen Jack

692
00:30:07,649 --> 00:30:04,479
Parsons to be the guy and Jack Parsons

693
00:30:10,619 --> 00:30:07,659
says oh I met this tremendous guy l ron

694
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:10,629
Hubbard and they're out in the desert of

695
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:13,690
California and they're doing this [\h__\h]

696
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:17,710
of Babylon ritual in order to conceive

697
00:30:24,989 --> 00:30:20,769
and bring into this world the Antichrist

698
00:30:29,099 --> 00:30:24,999
so I don't care how someone processes

699
00:30:32,190 --> 00:30:29,109
that you have to throw that into the mix

700
00:30:36,169 --> 00:30:32,200
you have to understand that to some

701
00:30:39,329 --> 00:30:36,179
level and in the only response because

702
00:30:41,249 --> 00:30:39,339
academia has locked itself into this

703
00:30:43,950 --> 00:30:41,259
very narrow understanding of

704
00:30:46,769 --> 00:30:43,960
consciousness extended consciousness the

705
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:46,779
existence of any other forces outside of

706
00:30:52,049 --> 00:30:49,450
our materialistic world because they've

707
00:30:54,989 --> 00:30:52,059
written all that off they just turn the

708
00:30:57,060 --> 00:30:54,999
page on this and it's like but that's

709
00:31:01,680 --> 00:30:57,070
one thing I kind of pushed cuber ban on

710
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:01,690
it's like doesn't this deserve some at

711
00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:02,370
least

712
00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:04,590
exploration in terms of what this would

713
00:31:08,590 --> 00:31:06,600
mean and in particular and that's

714
00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:08,600
another kind of thing that's in my

715
00:31:15,049 --> 00:31:12,510
bailiwick and that's the fact that you

716
00:31:18,650 --> 00:31:15,059
know we have some kind of provable links

717
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:18,660
to the cult conspiracy if you will

718
00:31:23,540 --> 00:31:20,910
inside the United States government the

719
00:31:27,799 --> 00:31:23,550
MKULTRA program the lot of people have

720
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:27,809
heard about is directly connected to the

721
00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:31,410
Jack Parsons thing it's also directly

722
00:31:36,650 --> 00:31:34,020
connected to something called Project

723
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:36,660
Star Gate and the men who stare at goats

724
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,490
thing that a lot of people have heard

725
00:31:42,770 --> 00:31:40,320
about and what a lot of people don't

726
00:31:45,169 --> 00:31:42,780
know is this whole stargate thing which

727
00:31:48,380 --> 00:31:45,179
was a CI program and there's tens of

728
00:31:50,390 --> 00:31:48,390
thousands of documents reliefs that kind

729
00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:50,400
of show that these guys are way past

730
00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:53,400
this oh there can't be any extended

731
00:31:57,220 --> 00:31:55,590
consciousness they're playing with

732
00:31:59,570 --> 00:31:57,230
extended consciousness they're

733
00:32:01,790 --> 00:31:59,580
experimenting with it they're reporting

734
00:32:03,980 --> 00:32:01,800
back to Jimmy Carter and he's announcing

735
00:32:06,410 --> 00:32:03,990
and on the news that wow these guys are

736
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:06,420
psychic and they can spy all over the

737
00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:08,250
world kind of thing they found this down

738
00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:13,220
flame well the guys who are the original

739
00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:16,590
founders researchers the go-to guys in

740
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:19,460
under the MKULTRA program that is

741
00:32:28,010 --> 00:32:23,370
Project Star Gate two of them are very

742
00:32:32,270 --> 00:32:28,020
early I guess members of Scientology so

743
00:32:36,290 --> 00:32:32,280
how put off is no Swann is and that too

744
00:32:38,930 --> 00:32:36,300
to not explore that I mean again so

745
00:32:42,290 --> 00:32:38,940
that's the other hill that I think

746
00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:42,300
academia is dying on that just this kind

747
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:46,520
of complete blindness to even consider

748
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:49,170
what's going on in this extended realm

749
00:32:54,110 --> 00:32:52,290
and how that might be a reality number

750
00:32:56,540 --> 00:32:54,120
one for all these religions because

751
00:32:59,330 --> 00:32:56,550
that's the the way that the head-fake

752
00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:59,340
week thing is that well we don't really

753
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:00,720
have to deal with that because it

754
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:03,210
couldn't possibly be true so you will

755
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:04,770
talk about Christianity all day long

756
00:33:08,780 --> 00:33:06,480
because we don't believe that any of it

757
00:33:10,430 --> 00:33:08,790
could possibly be real same with

758
00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:10,440
Satanism we'll talk about it all day

759
00:33:14,450 --> 00:33:12,360
long because there's no way any of it

760
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:14,460
could be true I'm not a religious guy

761
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:15,840
Chris

762
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:17,730
but I look at the evidence I just follow

763
00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:19,919
the evidence and clearly there's

764
00:33:24,769 --> 00:33:22,049
something going on in this extended

765
00:33:27,230 --> 00:33:24,779
consciousness realm that we need to

766
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:27,240
consider as part of this discussion or

767
00:33:32,090 --> 00:33:29,850
it all just becomes gobbly [\h__\h] well

768
00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:32,100
I'll tell you how I think about that as

769
00:33:38,169 --> 00:33:34,860
the skeptic and and I think about that

770
00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:38,179
in terms of if you want to talk about

771
00:33:42,740 --> 00:33:40,529
the legitimacy of extending

772
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:42,750
consciousness psychic powers yes PSO

773
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:44,490
apathy a supernatural paranormal

774
00:33:48,409 --> 00:33:46,710
activities this sort of thing you're

775
00:33:50,529 --> 00:33:48,419
gonna have to show me evidence and and

776
00:33:53,779 --> 00:33:50,539
so far I've been coming up pretty short

777
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:53,789
across the boards however I agree with

778
00:33:58,519 --> 00:33:56,970
what you're saying because the point is

779
00:33:59,960 --> 00:33:58,529
that if you're gonna be a religious

780
00:34:02,029 --> 00:33:59,970
scholar and you're gonna dive into this

781
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:02,039
you're talking to people you're talking

782
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:04,320
about people who do believe this stuff

783
00:34:07,970 --> 00:34:06,090
and they believe it with all their heart

784
00:34:09,950 --> 00:34:07,980
I did I used to write when I was a

785
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:09,960
Scientologist I believe in ot phenomena

786
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:12,690
ot powers with operating thetan

787
00:34:17,540 --> 00:34:15,330
upper-level stuff right that you could

788
00:34:19,790 --> 00:34:17,550
rehabilitate yourself spiritually to a

789
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:19,800
state where telekinesis was possible

790
00:34:24,139 --> 00:34:21,839
you know clairvoyance this kind of

791
00:34:27,619 --> 00:34:24,149
things I believed all that and never

792
00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:27,629
experienced it once but supposedly

793
00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:29,790
Hubbard had and other people had and

794
00:34:32,899 --> 00:34:31,470
Hubbard talked about it at length so it

795
00:34:36,079 --> 00:34:32,909
must be true there must be some validity

796
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:36,089
to it and even my own parents were OTS

797
00:34:39,530 --> 00:34:38,010
and sometimes they would like to play a

798
00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:39,540
little mind games with me when I was

799
00:34:44,270 --> 00:34:41,550
kids so I thought there was some

800
00:34:46,970 --> 00:34:44,280
legitimacy to all of this and that's the

801
00:34:49,129 --> 00:34:46,980
important thing is that you have to you

802
00:34:50,839 --> 00:34:49,139
have to know that's not that's not we're

803
00:34:52,849 --> 00:34:50,849
talking that's one of the important

804
00:34:55,940 --> 00:34:52,859
things but the first important thing is

805
00:34:57,650 --> 00:34:55,950
is there a reality to it or not so I

806
00:35:00,650 --> 00:34:57,660
don't want to push this and make this

807
00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:00,660
dominate the the conversation but again

808
00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:02,760
I'm talking about when I'm talking about

809
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:06,780
Stargate and MK ULTRA I mean there's

810
00:35:10,099 --> 00:35:08,970
tens of thousands I just interviewed

811
00:35:11,870 --> 00:35:10,109
this guy you can see him up on the

812
00:35:14,420 --> 00:35:11,880
screen lance munguia who just did this

813
00:35:16,670 --> 00:35:14,430
movie third eye spies and as part of the

814
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:16,680
movie he went with Russell Targ

815
00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:19,680
and they got tens of thousands of

816
00:35:25,370 --> 00:35:22,920
previously classified CIA documents

817
00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:25,380
released that it's closed its case

818
00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:26,430
closed

819
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:28,680
in terms of Stargate being

820
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:32,460
being effective so if you don't want to

821
00:35:39,980 --> 00:35:35,250
go there hold on a second now hang on

822
00:35:41,089 --> 00:35:39,990
did it happen yes was it effective okay

823
00:35:44,089 --> 00:35:41,099
that's a whole different question

824
00:35:46,130 --> 00:35:44,099
absolutely I was absolutely agree with

825
00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:46,140
you that it happened

826
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:48,540
no no they actually proved

827
00:35:53,089 --> 00:35:51,599
remote-viewing oh yeah they've not only

828
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:53,099
proved it as part of the Stargate

829
00:35:57,170 --> 00:35:54,410
program but there's been peer reviewed

830
00:36:01,339 --> 00:35:57,180
many peer-reviewed studies that have

831
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:01,349
been done it shows its efficacy and so

832
00:36:04,370 --> 00:36:02,400
what I don't want to get into the whole

833
00:36:07,940 --> 00:36:04,380
skeptical debate I mean we can do that

834
00:36:10,940 --> 00:36:07,950
but there's just no basis for this kind

835
00:36:14,059 --> 00:36:10,950
of did it ever happened James Randi kind

836
00:36:16,339 --> 00:36:14,069
of maybe there was a camera a fake kind

837
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:16,349
of thing all that stuff has been just

838
00:36:21,230 --> 00:36:18,480
thoroughly debunked but put though to

839
00:36:24,109 --> 00:36:21,240
the point of Stargate tens of thousands

840
00:36:26,809 --> 00:36:24,119
of release documents that show its

841
00:36:28,849 --> 00:36:26,819
efficacy over and over again and

842
00:36:30,620 --> 00:36:28,859
peer-reviewed studies that show its

843
00:36:32,540 --> 00:36:30,630
efficacy there really shouldn't be any

844
00:36:35,089 --> 00:36:32,550
doubt at this point but we can't cover

845
00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:35,099
all that that evidence here and I don't

846
00:36:39,410 --> 00:36:36,660
know maybe it's not relevant then

847
00:36:41,299 --> 00:36:39,420
because we can't really go there no I'd

848
00:36:44,049 --> 00:36:41,309
have to see that I have yet to see a

849
00:36:46,339 --> 00:36:44,059
single piece of compelling evidence

850
00:36:49,370 --> 00:36:46,349
you just haven't looked for it but

851
00:36:50,930 --> 00:36:49,380
that's a dude do not say that's me you

852
00:36:54,799 --> 00:36:50,940
don't know a thing about what I haven't

853
00:36:56,270 --> 00:36:54,809
haven't looked at not make assumptions

854
00:36:58,460 --> 00:36:56,280
about what I haven't haven't looked at I

855
00:37:00,200 --> 00:36:58,470
spent my entire childhood studying ism

856
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:00,210
don't tell me what I know and don't know

857
00:37:04,940 --> 00:37:03,210
I'm saying category I'm saying

858
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:04,950
categorically if you don't understand

859
00:37:10,130 --> 00:37:07,680
that Stargate has been proven and that

860
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:10,140
remote viewing has been proven again I

861
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:12,210
just added rec to show me just show me

862
00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:13,680
evidence that's all I'm saying

863
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:15,150
send me some papers show me this

864
00:37:18,829 --> 00:37:17,040
peer-reviewed stuff because so I'll show

865
00:37:20,569 --> 00:37:18,839
you an appearance I'll show you the

866
00:37:22,910 --> 00:37:20,579
peer-reviewed stuff and then it'll be

867
00:37:24,289 --> 00:37:22,920
then it'll send it to me and then it

868
00:37:27,020 --> 00:37:24,299
will okay and then you'll and then

869
00:37:29,210 --> 00:37:27,030
you'll come look at what you send me and

870
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:29,220
I will look at it and then I will make

871
00:37:33,980 --> 00:37:32,400
my decisions based on what I read but I

872
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:33,990
have not yet seen any compelling

873
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:35,910
evidence for remote viewing being a

874
00:37:41,420 --> 00:37:37,890
thing I have seen many many many failed

875
00:37:42,410 --> 00:37:41,430
experiments and attempts at it so I'm

876
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:42,420
open to look

877
00:37:45,740 --> 00:37:43,920
whatever you want to send me I'm just

878
00:37:48,109 --> 00:37:45,750
saying don't assume that you know what I

879
00:37:51,049 --> 00:37:48,119
know because I have studied this at

880
00:37:53,059 --> 00:37:51,059
length I've done the deep dives and you

881
00:37:59,180 --> 00:37:53,069
know really like I can't know what you

882
00:38:00,069 --> 00:37:59,190
know no of course not you get what I'm

883
00:38:03,410 --> 00:38:00,079
saying and that

884
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:03,420
you know it's like well I mean just for

885
00:38:06,410 --> 00:38:05,130
just for fun since we're in the middle

886
00:38:08,510 --> 00:38:06,420
of this conversation we've kind of

887
00:38:11,329 --> 00:38:08,520
really handled the first part of it you

888
00:38:12,530 --> 00:38:11,339
know I'd go like near-death experience I

889
00:38:14,569 --> 00:38:12,540
suppose you don't think that

890
00:38:19,970 --> 00:38:14,579
consciousness survives bodily death I

891
00:38:21,140 --> 00:38:19,980
don't know if it does or not go read go

892
00:38:23,660 --> 00:38:21,150
read the handbook of near-death

893
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:23,670
experiences by dr. Janice Holden and

894
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:24,960
Bruce Grayson from the University of

895
00:38:30,260 --> 00:38:27,119
Virginia and Jan Holden's from North

896
00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:30,270
Texas 200 peer-reviewed papers I've

897
00:38:34,069 --> 00:38:31,950
interviewed all the leading experts in

898
00:38:36,109 --> 00:38:34,079
the world every expert tells you

899
00:38:38,329 --> 00:38:36,119
consciousness revives death but that

900
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:38,339
just doesn't penetrate to a certain

901
00:38:41,630 --> 00:38:40,290
group of people it's really just like

902
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:41,640
talking to a fundamentalist Christian

903
00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:44,010
it's the same thing it's we'll talk till

904
00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:46,020
it's blue in the face and it's like nope

905
00:38:51,020 --> 00:38:48,900
nope nope show me the evidence that's

906
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:51,030
not enough you haven't convinced me like

907
00:38:56,569 --> 00:38:53,490
that's the standard is like convincing

908
00:38:58,789 --> 00:38:56,579
an individual is the standard not that

909
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:58,799
all the experts in the field have come

910
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:01,200
to this conclusion based on data that

911
00:39:06,170 --> 00:39:03,210
they can publish in peer review papers

912
00:39:09,859 --> 00:39:06,180
that's not enough kind of thing right

913
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:09,869
well peer reviewed science is the best

914
00:39:15,380 --> 00:39:11,970
system that we have but it is not an

915
00:39:19,069 --> 00:39:15,390
infallible system correct so we need to

916
00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:19,079
always always be skeptical and critical

917
00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:21,089
of what we read and that's really my

918
00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:24,480
only approach I'm not a dedicated non

919
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:28,049
believer or unbeliever however let's be

920
00:39:33,319 --> 00:39:30,770
clear I spent 27 years in a movement

921
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:33,329
quote-unquote that was a destructive

922
00:39:39,319 --> 00:39:36,450
cult thinking I was saving the world so

923
00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:39,329
you can understand why I might be more

924
00:39:45,380 --> 00:39:42,660
than a little skeptical of claims of a

925
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:45,390
similar nature being made when in the

926
00:39:50,180 --> 00:39:47,760
big wide world I see no evidence that

927
00:39:52,940 --> 00:39:50,190
any of this stuff is real so that's why

928
00:39:54,829 --> 00:39:52,950
I say well I look at anything you want

929
00:39:56,270 --> 00:39:54,839
to send me and on more than happy to

930
00:39:58,880 --> 00:39:56,280
contemplate it and then

931
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:58,890
my position is simply I don't know which

932
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:01,680
I believe is a better position then no

933
00:40:04,910 --> 00:40:03,510
that's not true when it can't be true

934
00:40:09,890 --> 00:40:04,920
when there's no way I will ever believe

935
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:09,900
that that are not fair fair enough in

936
00:40:15,950 --> 00:40:10,890
two respects

937
00:40:17,570 --> 00:40:15,960
one is that I do honor your experience

938
00:40:20,270 --> 00:40:17,580
because I think it's important and

939
00:40:21,980 --> 00:40:20,280
that's why I called you up and yeah and

940
00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:21,990
finagle this interview it's important

941
00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:24,240
and you make a strong case for your

942
00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:27,660
experience and I also totally get that

943
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:30,510
where you're coming from seems

944
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:33,660
completely reasonable to me I hear you

945
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:38,400
saying hey I understand how easy it is

946
00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:42,450
to get roped into a set of narrow

947
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:44,670
beliefs that take somebody down a path

948
00:40:48,650 --> 00:40:47,280
Alex I've seen it with other people you

949
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:48,660
seem like a very intelligent guy

950
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:50,880
well-spoken guy and I think that's the

951
00:40:54,770 --> 00:40:52,770
thing that gets people like a wait how

952
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:54,780
could that guy have you know that's the

953
00:40:58,010 --> 00:40:56,400
question on everyone's mind and I think

954
00:41:01,010 --> 00:40:58,020
you're kind of answering that by saying

955
00:41:03,470 --> 00:41:01,020
look I know how easy it is so let me

956
00:41:06,110 --> 00:41:03,480
tell you I got the defense shields up

957
00:41:09,220 --> 00:41:06,120
they're not impenetrable but I have them

958
00:41:12,010 --> 00:41:09,230
up at full force and I do respect that

959
00:41:14,990 --> 00:41:12,020
thank you I appreciate you saying that

960
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:15,000
it is important to be skeptical in a

961
00:41:19,580 --> 00:41:18,210
world where Gwyneth Paltrow is making

962
00:41:21,590 --> 00:41:19,590
more money than you and I are ever going

963
00:41:24,140 --> 00:41:21,600
to see in our entire lives selling

964
00:41:27,140 --> 00:41:24,150
people complete and utter [\h__\h]

965
00:41:29,810 --> 00:41:27,150
that's the world we live in so it is

966
00:41:32,510 --> 00:41:29,820
with you know good

967
00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:32,520
it's a good thing to be skeptical in

968
00:41:40,100 --> 00:41:36,390
this world I hear your point well taken

969
00:41:42,140 --> 00:41:40,110
out let's talk about this topic from a

970
00:41:44,690 --> 00:41:42,150
practical standpoint yeah

971
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:44,700
critical for people to know that there

972
00:41:51,230 --> 00:41:48,090
is a way out maybe you can start by

973
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:51,240
sharing your journey out I mean you

974
00:41:56,690 --> 00:41:52,770
already have a little bit but what else

975
00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:56,700
can can people most profit from and in

976
00:42:00,800 --> 00:41:58,050
particular you know you're talking to an

977
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:00,810
audience that they're not Scientologists

978
00:42:06,770 --> 00:42:02,910
for the most part but maybe they know

979
00:42:08,690 --> 00:42:06,780
someone who could recognize some of

980
00:42:10,730 --> 00:42:08,700
these that they recognize some of the

981
00:42:12,620 --> 00:42:10,740
same features symptoms

982
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:12,630
you get the idea how do you get totally

983
00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:15,690
its you know I just did a two hour

984
00:42:21,950 --> 00:42:17,880
podcast with a man who has been doing

985
00:42:24,170 --> 00:42:21,960
this for almost 50 years now and it's an

986
00:42:25,940 --> 00:42:24,180
extensive topic getting people out of

987
00:42:29,870 --> 00:42:25,950
these groups but I will summarize that

988
00:42:35,870 --> 00:42:29,880
by saying care compassion tolerance and

989
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:35,880
understanding you will never ever swear

990
00:42:42,410 --> 00:42:38,970
at somebody and tagging eyes them out of

991
00:42:44,810 --> 00:42:42,420
a belief system or a destructive cult or

992
00:42:46,010 --> 00:42:44,820
any kind of situation really if you want

993
00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:46,020
to change hearts and minds you're gonna

994
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:48,390
have to do it by talking to people and

995
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:50,730
their Bible not yours and that involves

996
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:52,290
usually a lot more listening than it

997
00:42:57,830 --> 00:42:55,650
does talking and getting to why it is

998
00:42:59,420 --> 00:42:57,840
that this person has gotten involved in

999
00:43:00,680 --> 00:42:59,430
this group in the first place what

1000
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:00,690
they're getting out of it what it does

1001
00:43:05,090 --> 00:43:02,640
for them what they think it does for

1002
00:43:07,550 --> 00:43:05,100
them maybe versus what it's really doing

1003
00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:07,560
to them they don't see what you see they

1004
00:43:12,020 --> 00:43:10,110
see what they see and they can't see

1005
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:12,030
what you see they can only see what they

1006
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:14,010
see and when you've bought into a group

1007
00:43:20,060 --> 00:43:17,520
like this where you've you've slowly

1008
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:20,070
it's a slow series of agreements it's

1009
00:43:24,970 --> 00:43:22,740
not nobody's getting Xenu on day one

1010
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:24,980
nobody's getting Xenu on day two

1011
00:43:31,790 --> 00:43:28,170
nobody's getting Xenu on day 50 it's a

1012
00:43:34,099 --> 00:43:31,800
very slow progress before you're getting

1013
00:43:37,130 --> 00:43:34,109
into this really weird deep space opera

1014
00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:37,140
stuff and the and the space aliens and

1015
00:43:40,190 --> 00:43:38,520
all that stuff that's that's really

1016
00:43:42,830 --> 00:43:40,200
upper-level stuff the but the

1017
00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:42,840
street-level Scientologist isn't going

1018
00:43:48,170 --> 00:43:45,390
to hear anything about that unless they

1019
00:43:50,359 --> 00:43:48,180
go specifically for certain books in the

1020
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:50,369
library of how Scientology that they can

1021
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:51,930
find that are there that are public

1022
00:43:56,930 --> 00:43:54,480
publicly accessible books like history

1023
00:44:01,520 --> 00:43:56,940
of man you know where Hubbard goes all

1024
00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:01,530
out on ADA traps and spiritual stuff and

1025
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:04,950
all this other nonsense so you can get

1026
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:07,440
into that if you want to but your normal

1027
00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:09,510
Scientology experience isn't going to

1028
00:44:14,540 --> 00:44:12,300
include any of that so if you go talking

1029
00:44:18,140 --> 00:44:14,550
to a Scientologist and say Xenu and

1030
00:44:19,609 --> 00:44:18,150
space aliens and exorcisms and all this

1031
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:19,619
they're gonna look at you like you have

1032
00:44:22,970 --> 00:44:21,210
no idea what you're talking about

1033
00:44:23,940 --> 00:44:22,980
because as far as they're concerned you

1034
00:44:26,970 --> 00:44:23,950
don't

1035
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:26,980
and trying to argue dogma yes look

1036
00:44:32,100 --> 00:44:29,920
usually a losing battle I can understand

1037
00:44:34,580 --> 00:44:32,110
that take the other side of that if you

1038
00:44:37,380 --> 00:44:34,590
are talking to someone who maybe is

1039
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:37,390
recently within the last few years been

1040
00:44:42,990 --> 00:44:40,050
indoctrinated into specifically

1041
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:43,000
Scientology kind of elaborate on that

1042
00:44:49,020 --> 00:44:46,480
what is the approach what has probably

1043
00:44:51,810 --> 00:44:49,030
sucked them in what is the kind of

1044
00:44:55,350 --> 00:44:51,820
listening that you can effectively do

1045
00:44:57,690 --> 00:44:55,360
yeah of course the the things that the

1046
00:45:00,270 --> 00:44:57,700
way Scientology reals people Lin and I

1047
00:45:03,510 --> 00:45:00,280
sort of compare it to a you know [\h__\h]

1048
00:45:06,570 --> 00:45:03,520
line right is they hook you on a very

1049
00:45:08,010 --> 00:45:06,580
very personal level when you first go

1050
00:45:09,780 --> 00:45:08,020
into a Scientology organization you're

1051
00:45:11,490 --> 00:45:09,790
usually brought in by a friend or family

1052
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:11,500
member that's that's the number one way

1053
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:14,290
that Scientologists are made we talked

1054
00:45:19,350 --> 00:45:16,210
at you mentioned at the beginning second

1055
00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:19,360
Jen's like me second-generation cult

1056
00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:21,220
member I was raised in it there our

1057
00:45:25,230 --> 00:45:23,470
third fourth even fifth generation

1058
00:45:28,620 --> 00:45:25,240
members at this point the Scientologists

1059
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:28,630
been around since 1953 so it's been

1060
00:45:33,930 --> 00:45:32,140
around for a while and so family and so

1061
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:33,940
family of course are just raised with it

1062
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:37,650
like me but even I had to have my

1063
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,210
epiphany moment and that was when I was

1064
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:42,160
15 and I went into a Scientology

1065
00:45:46,380 --> 00:45:43,930
organization on my own and my dad's

1066
00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:46,390
suggestion and I did their personality

1067
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:48,400
test and that's generally how they want

1068
00:45:52,530 --> 00:45:49,690
to get us they want to do that

1069
00:45:55,110 --> 00:45:52,540
personality test it's 200 questions it

1070
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:55,120
ends up with a graph of personality

1071
00:46:00,720 --> 00:45:57,690
characteristics and it and the the whole

1072
00:46:03,150 --> 00:46:00,730
thrust of that is to get you to sit down

1073
00:46:05,550 --> 00:46:03,160
with the test evaluator and start

1074
00:46:07,980 --> 00:46:05,560
talking and tell them about yourself and

1075
00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:07,990
what they're looking for is the thing

1076
00:46:13,770 --> 00:46:10,840
that they think is what they call their

1077
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:13,780
your ruin they're looking for the thing

1078
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:16,450
that you think is the number one problem

1079
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:18,160
in your life that you have to resolve

1080
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:19,920
right now because it's ruining your life

1081
00:46:25,170 --> 00:46:22,240
whether it's that you can't talk to your

1082
00:46:26,580 --> 00:46:25,180
kids you have problems at work use of

1083
00:46:30,540 --> 00:46:26,590
marriage problems family problems

1084
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:30,550
whatever it is there's about 20 21

1085
00:46:35,370 --> 00:46:33,010
different buttons that they push that

1086
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:35,380
they that they can get at you at and

1087
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:37,570
those were surveyed for what are the

1088
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:40,210
biggest problems people are aware of in

1089
00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:41,290
their lives that they want to do

1090
00:46:46,350 --> 00:46:43,000
something about right and they have

1091
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:46,360
courses that they've designed to deal

1092
00:46:49,230 --> 00:46:48,130
with each of those problems so if you

1093
00:46:50,610 --> 00:46:49,240
walk in there and you take this

1094
00:46:52,620 --> 00:46:50,620
personality test and you start talking

1095
00:46:55,170 --> 00:46:52,630
about how you know you and your kid are

1096
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:55,180
so estranged you can't talk anymore and

1097
00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:56,800
it seems like he's just rebelling every

1098
00:47:00,060 --> 00:46:58,570
time you talk to him and and it's just a

1099
00:47:02,010 --> 00:47:00,070
mess and you don't know what to do and

1100
00:47:03,690 --> 00:47:02,020
you feel like you're losing them and and

1101
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:03,700
you want this relationship and it's just

1102
00:47:07,710 --> 00:47:06,610
dishes tearing you apart great we got a

1103
00:47:09,540 --> 00:47:07,720
course for that it's called the

1104
00:47:10,890 --> 00:47:09,550
communications course and then we've got

1105
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:10,900
this other course about dealing with

1106
00:47:14,340 --> 00:47:12,730
kids and and if you take these two

1107
00:47:17,490 --> 00:47:14,350
classes and they're only fifty bucks

1108
00:47:19,110 --> 00:47:17,500
each we will handle that ruin utterly

1109
00:47:22,170 --> 00:47:19,120
and you will never have that problem

1110
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:22,180
again and that's the hook that's how

1111
00:47:25,740 --> 00:47:23,440
they get you in is it's something very

1112
00:47:26,940 --> 00:47:25,750
personal that you go really that can you

1113
00:47:30,330 --> 00:47:26,950
have something that can help me with

1114
00:47:34,740 --> 00:47:30,340
that it's very practical it's extremely

1115
00:47:38,730 --> 00:47:34,750
practical and they market Scientology as

1116
00:47:40,890 --> 00:47:38,740
a toolbox for you for life Scientology

1117
00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:40,900
has these tools that you can use it's

1118
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:42,790
not about beliefs it's not about space

1119
00:47:46,410 --> 00:47:44,290
aliens it's not about any of that stuff

1120
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:46,420
that crap you read on the Internet it's

1121
00:47:50,940 --> 00:47:48,640
about tools for making your life a

1122
00:47:52,890 --> 00:47:50,950
better thing and who could possibly

1123
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:52,900
object to that

1124
00:47:57,570 --> 00:47:55,510
it's basically positive psychology

1125
00:47:59,400 --> 00:47:57,580
cognitive psychology for folks who can't

1126
00:48:01,650 --> 00:47:59,410
afford it it kind of makes sense I

1127
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:01,660
really did I kind of knew it but when

1128
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:03,130
you break it down it makes a lot of

1129
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:06,010
sense if I can go to a class and learn

1130
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:09,910
you know a bunch of positive psychology

1131
00:48:14,910 --> 00:48:12,670
things cognitive psychology things that

1132
00:48:18,330 --> 00:48:14,920
are liable to help improve my situation

1133
00:48:19,950 --> 00:48:18,340
it's very tempting yeah exactly and and

1134
00:48:22,020 --> 00:48:19,960
what's that what's so objectionable

1135
00:48:24,750 --> 00:48:22,030
about any of that I mean this is very

1136
00:48:27,330 --> 00:48:24,760
worked out yes they've been they've been

1137
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:27,340
doing this for like what 70 almost you

1138
00:48:32,250 --> 00:48:30,130
know 70 years now they've really worked

1139
00:48:34,170 --> 00:48:32,260
out all the kinks in this slide right

1140
00:48:36,660 --> 00:48:34,180
the thing Scientology can't deal with

1141
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:36,670
right now is all of us all of us ex

1142
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:38,710
members who are going hey man that looks

1143
00:48:41,940 --> 00:48:40,510
and sounds great but guess what that has

1144
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:41,950
nothing to do with what Scientology is

1145
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:43,810
really all about and that's what we're

1146
00:48:47,610 --> 00:48:45,280
trying to warn you about right is it's

1147
00:48:49,830 --> 00:48:47,620
like yeah that sounds real good and at

1148
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:49,840
the public level some of the tools they

1149
00:48:53,749 --> 00:48:50,930
give you actually

1150
00:48:55,819 --> 00:48:53,759
because they'd have to because why would

1151
00:48:59,359 --> 00:48:55,829
you sign up for more if it didn't you

1152
00:49:01,640 --> 00:48:59,369
know so it's all common-sense stuff but

1153
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:01,650
it's but it's but it's all presented to

1154
00:49:06,319 --> 00:49:04,170
you and framed in a way that you know

1155
00:49:08,210 --> 00:49:06,329
who could possibly objected that's what

1156
00:49:10,279 --> 00:49:08,220
what you know anybody who's telling you

1157
00:49:12,140 --> 00:49:10,289
bad things about Scientology clearly

1158
00:49:14,450 --> 00:49:12,150
doesn't want you to get better

1159
00:49:15,950 --> 00:49:14,460
well you know and we didn't get into

1160
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:15,960
this we're going to going to wrap it up

1161
00:49:21,410 --> 00:49:18,170
but I would maintain that that

1162
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:21,420
Christianity does exactly the same thing

1163
00:49:26,690 --> 00:49:24,660
anyone who's sat right you get it I do

1164
00:49:28,999 --> 00:49:26,700
you sit in church and they're saying

1165
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:29,009
they'll say three things that you're

1166
00:49:33,529 --> 00:49:30,930
like totally on board with which is that

1167
00:49:36,140 --> 00:49:33,539
you know shouldn't you show compassion

1168
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:36,150
we're doing this drive to help our

1169
00:49:39,890 --> 00:49:37,890
neighbors and [\h__\h] you know you're like

1170
00:49:41,180 --> 00:49:39,900
yeah and you know shouldn't we forgive

1171
00:49:43,609 --> 00:49:41,190
and you know you're like yeah that

1172
00:49:51,140 --> 00:49:43,619
really is more effective in life didn't

1173
00:49:54,349 --> 00:49:51,150
Jesus died for your sin thing like it's

1174
00:49:57,319 --> 00:49:54,359
the same that's right that's one of the

1175
00:50:00,829 --> 00:49:57,329
things I just think sometimes are a

1176
00:50:02,150 --> 00:50:00,839
little bit soft on on Christianity and

1177
00:50:06,140 --> 00:50:02,160
in particularly right now it should be

1178
00:50:10,489 --> 00:50:06,150
so starkly obvious with the whole petal

1179
00:50:13,130 --> 00:50:10,499
Pope thing and still people don't get it

1180
00:50:16,069 --> 00:50:13,140
and you know they still go there and

1181
00:50:18,799 --> 00:50:16,079
give their money morally ethically how

1182
00:50:22,789 --> 00:50:18,809
can you give your money to an

1183
00:50:26,299 --> 00:50:22,799
organization that that is provably that

1184
00:50:29,749 --> 00:50:26,309
linked to this kind of systematic

1185
00:50:31,819 --> 00:50:29,759
exploitation of children and all these

1186
00:50:36,410 --> 00:50:31,829
sex crimes how come there's I don't know

1187
00:50:38,690 --> 00:50:36,420
how one justifies that really I mean

1188
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:38,700
it's pretty easy because they just look

1189
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:41,690
at that horrible behavior is something

1190
00:50:48,940 --> 00:50:44,970
different or an aberration I should say

1191
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:48,950
maybe it's a it's a it's a it's a fringe

1192
00:50:54,229 --> 00:50:51,930
extremist criminal element but that's

1193
00:50:55,789 --> 00:50:54,239
only a little tiny part and the cope is

1194
00:50:56,989 --> 00:50:55,799
dealing with that and the Catholic you

1195
00:50:58,549 --> 00:50:56,999
know they're dealing with that where I

1196
00:51:00,609 --> 00:50:58,559
just just listen to what they say

1197
00:51:04,260 --> 00:51:00,619
they've called councils and they've done

1198
00:51:06,660 --> 00:51:04,270
meetings and they yeah

1199
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:06,670
did a committee and we we you know and

1200
00:51:11,550 --> 00:51:09,010
this guy here and and you know and if

1201
00:51:13,350 --> 00:51:11,560
you don't go to deep which here's the

1202
00:51:15,540 --> 00:51:13,360
thing about people this is the thing

1203
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:15,550
that I've learned that has been the most

1204
00:51:22,530 --> 00:51:21,070
difficult thing is it's no mystery we

1205
00:51:25,230 --> 00:51:22,540
all know that this happens it's just

1206
00:51:27,030 --> 00:51:25,240
difficult to accept is that when

1207
00:51:28,170 --> 00:51:27,040
somebody wants to believe something when

1208
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:28,180
they have him when they're when they're

1209
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:29,890
engaging and what's called motivated

1210
00:51:36,270 --> 00:51:32,800
reasoning where they they have a an

1211
00:51:40,890 --> 00:51:36,280
emotional investment of some kind in the

1212
00:51:44,490 --> 00:51:40,900
topic at hand they only need one semi

1213
00:51:46,620 --> 00:51:44,500
legitimate reason and they can they can

1214
00:51:48,450 --> 00:51:46,630
write off all kinds of abuses they can

1215
00:51:51,060 --> 00:51:48,460
they can just go now it's all you know

1216
00:51:53,250 --> 00:51:51,070
just one little in clean of something

1217
00:51:56,250 --> 00:51:53,260
it's called confirmation bias and we all

1218
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:56,260
do it and that's that's the answer to

1219
00:52:00,840 --> 00:51:58,330
why people do that because because they

1220
00:52:02,940 --> 00:52:00,850
want to because they want to believe and

1221
00:52:06,030 --> 00:52:02,950
if you want to get to the motivations of

1222
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:06,040
that then we talked about mortality and

1223
00:52:12,450 --> 00:52:08,710
social pressures and all the other stuff

1224
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:12,460
that comes in so Chris tell folks about

1225
00:52:16,110 --> 00:52:13,450
some of the other work you're doing

1226
00:52:22,050 --> 00:52:16,120
critical you are the critical thinker at

1227
00:52:25,380 --> 00:52:22,060
large I try tell folks what's coming up

1228
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:25,390
on your channel and in your podcast yeah

1229
00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:27,760
we're doing where I'm actually putting

1230
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:31,000
together a series on MLM multi-level

1231
00:52:37,250 --> 00:52:34,330
marketing cons because those are totally

1232
00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:37,260
related to destructive cults and

1233
00:52:41,580 --> 00:52:39,790
actually speaking of via cult stuff I'm

1234
00:52:44,670 --> 00:52:41,590
in I'm in touch with somebody right now

1235
00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:44,680
who was or is a member was a member of

1236
00:52:50,490 --> 00:52:47,710
the OTO the Ordo Templi Orientis which

1237
00:52:52,890 --> 00:52:50,500
was Hubbard's which was the church or

1238
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:52,900
sort of formal organization connected

1239
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:54,400
with Aleister Crowley and Hubbard and

1240
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:56,530
Parsons and all of that so I'm looking

1241
00:53:00,780 --> 00:52:57,850
forward to exploring some of that in the

1242
00:53:03,390 --> 00:53:00,790
near future on my channel as well nice

1243
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:03,400
whoa but it's great important work I

1244
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:06,400
like that you definitely are open to the

1245
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:09,370
science and have a lot of good experts

1246
00:53:13,350 --> 00:53:11,920
on your chin so it's been a good

1247
00:53:16,260 --> 00:53:13,360
discussion anything else we need to

1248
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:16,270
cover well I guess not but thank you

1249
00:53:20,010 --> 00:53:18,010
very much for having me on

1250
00:53:21,420 --> 00:53:20,020
and you know I'm sorry if I got a little

1251
00:53:24,060 --> 00:53:21,430
rough pushing back on you a little bit

1252
00:53:25,710 --> 00:53:24,070
there I I just don't like assumptions

1253
00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:25,720
and I'm trying really really hard this

1254
00:53:30,660 --> 00:53:28,480
year to not assume things and I know you

1255
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:30,670
know a little problem no problem on the

1256
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:33,310
pushback at all I mean I think you've

1257
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:37,090
handled it extremely politely I can push

1258
00:53:41,580 --> 00:53:38,770
buttons even when I don't know I'm

1259
00:53:44,940 --> 00:53:41,590
pushing buttons but I will follow up

1260
00:53:47,130 --> 00:53:44,950
with you and make notes in the in the

1261
00:53:51,090 --> 00:53:47,140
the after notes of the show because

1262
00:53:52,740 --> 00:53:51,100
again it's pretty you know I don't know

1263
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:52,750
how you're gonna step over the

1264
00:53:58,260 --> 00:53:54,970
peer-reviewed research and the release

1265
00:54:01,470 --> 00:53:58,270
documents maybe you will just have a

1266
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:01,480
little slight shift in your worldview

1267
00:54:11,010 --> 00:54:08,050
but my most people well let me tell you

1268
00:54:13,620 --> 00:54:11,020
that let me say this I would like

1269
00:54:17,790 --> 00:54:13,630
nothing more than to believe that life

1270
00:54:20,340 --> 00:54:17,800
doesn't stop when our bodies say that

1271
00:54:22,710 --> 00:54:20,350
who cares I don't care what what you

1272
00:54:25,290 --> 00:54:22,720
would like that has nothing to do with

1273
00:54:28,650 --> 00:54:25,300
the issue it really doesn't it comes

1274
00:54:31,590 --> 00:54:28,660
down to a science issue it's like what

1275
00:54:33,660 --> 00:54:31,600
is the nature of consciousness when does

1276
00:54:35,370 --> 00:54:33,670
it begin when does it end what's

1277
00:54:37,530 --> 00:54:35,380
necessary and sufficient to cause

1278
00:54:38,910 --> 00:54:37,540
consciousness one of the things that

1279
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:38,920
like we can't really have this

1280
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:40,930
discussion but it's like that's the

1281
00:54:45,930 --> 00:54:43,570
problem with underlying what Huw urban

1282
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:45,940
is talking about is they bought into

1283
00:54:51,150 --> 00:54:48,330
this kind of ridiculous notion of

1284
00:54:53,580 --> 00:54:51,160
materialism of consciousness isn't

1285
00:54:55,290 --> 00:54:53,590
epiphenomena of the brain which has been

1286
00:54:56,850 --> 00:54:55,300
disproven I mean I have some of them

1287
00:54:58,560 --> 00:54:56,860
work some of the world's leading

1288
00:55:00,360 --> 00:54:58,570
physicists who will tell you

1289
00:55:02,010 --> 00:55:00,370
consciousness is fundamental we've

1290
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:02,020
proven it all over and over again the

1291
00:55:06,450 --> 00:55:04,330
CERN lab over there where they're

1292
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:06,460
crashing together atoms and producing a

1293
00:55:10,350 --> 00:55:08,170
terabyte of data all come to the same

1294
00:55:13,890 --> 00:55:10,360
conclusion consciousness is fundamental

1295
00:55:15,540 --> 00:55:13,900
all the the best quantum physicists from

1296
00:55:20,250 --> 00:55:15,550
100 years ago came to the same

1297
00:55:22,830 --> 00:55:20,260
conclusion yet everyone is operating

1298
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:22,840
under this let's just do this thing

1299
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:25,570
where you know consciousness is it real

1300
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:28,000
we're just biological robots in a

1301
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:30,310
meaningless universe and let's go down

1302
00:55:34,710 --> 00:55:31,930
that path because it's comfort

1303
00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:34,720
that has been completely falsified but

1304
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:36,910
the reason I have to tiptoe around that

1305
00:55:41,130 --> 00:55:38,770
that is the world that you're living in

1306
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:41,140
because that is the the skeptical the

1307
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:43,690
skeptics quote-unquote pseudo skeptics

1308
00:55:49,170 --> 00:55:46,930
have kind of completely bought into that

1309
00:55:50,670 --> 00:55:49,180
without a careful examination of it so

1310
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:50,680
we can talk about remote viewing as

1311
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:54,130
being one tiny way to show that that's

1312
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:56,170
falsified but it's falsified in all

1313
00:56:02,430 --> 00:55:58,210
these other ways and the consequences of

1314
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:02,440
it are I think this kind of very narrow

1315
00:56:07,740 --> 00:56:06,370
in the some ways atheistic materialistic

1316
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:07,750
kind of mindset and again I'm not a

1317
00:56:12,210 --> 00:56:09,280
religious person so I'm not coming at it

1318
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:12,220
from that angle right I totally get it

1319
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:14,410
man and like I said I look at anything

1320
00:56:19,350 --> 00:56:17,530
you want to send me you know I have a

1321
00:56:23,790 --> 00:56:19,360
pretty high standard my bar is pretty

1322
00:56:26,310 --> 00:56:23,800
high on my threshold of acceptable

1323
00:56:28,190 --> 00:56:26,320
evidence so I'm very very curious what

1324
00:56:31,530 --> 00:56:28,200
you will send me and I will look at it

1325
00:56:33,630 --> 00:56:31,540
can't do any more can't ask any more

1326
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:33,640
than that or guest again has been Chris

1327
00:56:37,770 --> 00:56:35,410
Shelton make sure you check him out on

1328
00:56:40,100 --> 00:56:37,780
YouTube and check out his podcasts great

1329
00:56:43,170 --> 00:56:40,110
stuff Chris I think it added a lot to

1330
00:56:44,430 --> 00:56:43,180
rounding out this discussion with Hugh

1331
00:56:46,140 --> 00:56:44,440
Urban so I appreciate it

1332
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:46,150
absolutely thank you very much for

1333
00:56:49,140 --> 00:56:47,050
having me on and give him any

1334
00:56:50,370 --> 00:56:49,150
opportunity to talk thanks again to

1335
00:56:52,770 --> 00:56:50,380
Chris Shelton for joining me today on

1336
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:52,780
skeptic Oh since I really did invite him

1337
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:55,450
primarily to talk about Scientology I'm

1338
00:56:59,850 --> 00:56:57,760
not going to bash him too hard on the

1339
00:57:03,540 --> 00:56:59,860
pseudo skeptic critical thinking thing

1340
00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:03,550
which in my opinion is just I don't know

1341
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:05,710
you know jumping from one narrow belief

1342
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:08,530
system to another maybe but I did want

1343
00:57:13,770 --> 00:57:10,210
to let you know that I did follow up

1344
00:57:16,700 --> 00:57:13,780
with Chris sent him or some really

1345
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:16,710
radical studies like jessica cuts --is

1346
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:19,450
statistical analysis of psy research

1347
00:57:27,500 --> 00:57:24,010
dean radin six sigma result what else

1348
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:27,510
just standard stuff and he was very

1349
00:57:34,290 --> 00:57:29,530
unconvinced in my forgot what his other

1350
00:57:38,490 --> 00:57:34,300
word was but just anyways that's how it

1351
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:38,500
goes but interesting about the

1352
00:57:45,620 --> 00:57:42,570
scientology stuff and if it occurred

1353
00:57:47,660 --> 00:57:45,630
Demick angle on it which is just really

1354
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:47,670
looks more and more bizarre I mean how

1355
00:57:54,410 --> 00:57:52,050
can you not deal with people like Chris

1356
00:57:57,290 --> 00:57:54,420
who've been in it for 20 years how can

1357
00:58:01,040 --> 00:57:57,300
you not approach that offer some kind of

1358
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:01,050
explanation for the abuse like he says

1359
00:58:05,660 --> 00:58:02,970
the abuse that they've been through and

1360
00:58:08,330 --> 00:58:05,670
then yeah I don't want to come down too

1361
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:08,340
hard on dr. urban because he's in an

1362
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:10,290
environment obviously that kind of pulls

1363
00:58:16,580 --> 00:58:14,490
for that but hey so it goes so I'd love

1364
00:58:18,830 --> 00:58:16,590
to talk more with you about this show if

1365
00:58:21,980 --> 00:58:18,840
you'd like to join me hop on over to the

1366
00:58:24,020 --> 00:58:21,990
skeptic Co forum where me and other

1367
00:58:26,270 --> 00:58:24,030
people will be talking about this show

1368
00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:26,280
be sure to check out the skeptic co.com

1369
00:58:31,820 --> 00:58:29,040
a website where you can download this

1370
00:58:34,790 --> 00:58:31,830
and all these other previous shows just

1371
00:58:37,250 --> 00:58:34,800
get the mp3 files and do what you will

1372
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:37,260
got a bunch of them up there I have some

1373
00:58:42,460 --> 00:58:39,570
interesting shows coming up a couple of

1374
00:58:46,430 --> 00:58:42,470
interesting projects as well I

1375
00:58:48,260 --> 00:58:46,440
appreciate everyone out there who stays

1376
00:58:51,620 --> 00:58:48,270
with me through some of these tough

1377
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:51,630
discussions until next time take care